DPR Forum

Welcome to the Friendly Aisles!
DPRF is a spin-off of dpreview. We are a photography forum with people from all over the world freely sharing their knowledge and love of photography. Everybody is welcome, from beginners to the experienced professional. From smartphone to Medium Format.

DPRF is a community for everybody, every brand and every sensor format. Digital and film.
Enjoy this modern, easy to use software. Look also at our Reviews & Gallery!

Oh for a digital F100

Ian: Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but the way I understand the usefulness of mirror lockup is the mirror slap upon release is what causes the major amount of vibrations. The swinging up of the mirror is of minor consequence in terms of vibrations. The FM2 or FM2N models do nothing to very little to reduce problems from mirror induced vibrations.
 
Hi Russell,

My understanding is that the mirror moves up at the start of the self-timer cycle, so by the time the shutter is released, any vibration should have settled.

"Nikon FM, FE series models and Nikon FA, FG were designed in such a way that the main reflex mirror will flip upward immediately once you activate self timer operation - which means it does in a way achieving similar purpose in minimizing possible vibration caused by mirror movement." (From previous web address text)

Of course, this means that those lenses that required MLU for attachment to the camera mount (eg extending back through the camera towards the shutter and focal plane) could not be used on the FM series, but for the purposes of vibration reduction, this system is a reasonable compromise.

Regards,

Ian
 
Larry Wrote: <<If you have had poor performance under these circumstances, I would
question whether the camera is at fault, since obviously it has not
been in the case of the portfolios posted above. There are many more
ex&les should these fail to convince you.>>

I've seen your images and understand your comments. My general view is that the pictures themselves may be good (composition and exposure wise) but there is quite a bit of noise in those images that is displeasing to me. This may be a personal thing. Maybe we have different quality standards. But most of the low light images I saw could do with a bit of noise removal.

As far as shutter lag, camera boot times, and slow focus issue etc... goes those cameras are indeed slow to focus and have shutter lag. Yes I have a bunch of great images from my pro-sumer level cameras as well, but that is because I've learned to anticipate the shot, and pre-focus on nearby objects if possible to compensate for these issues. So in those respects the cameras are capable. I have learned to adapt and work around the shortcomings due to the use of good technique, but by no means will those cameras match the speed or clean image capabilities that I am accustomed to with film, or high end digital SLRs. Hence the wish for a digital equivalent of an F100. I applaud your ability to take good images with the pro-sumer cameras, it just means you have good fundamental photography skills/techniques and know how to use equipment to fit your needs. I have those abilities as well, so don't get me wrong. The pro-sumer range are capable cameras. Just not a match for the extra flexibility of having a pro level camera where spontaneity can be exercised.
 
Agreed, try and take a panning shot of birds n flight with say...a Nikon Cool Pix....and a D2H or D2X, and you will return with entirely diffrent pictures. Diffrent in number and quality. On static subjects...or close to static....the gap closes. The use of lenses that fit the need, speed that cant be touched by Prosumer grade P&S There is a reason such cameras are made and sell. (despite the measubators out there that just want the bragging rights to the newest this and that hoping it will make them a better photographer) : )

Put a P&S in larrys hands....and he will make an awesome photograph......put a stronger tool like a D2X in his hands.....and you wolnt see much diffrence except where the cameras features allow more control.....but larrys photography....will still have his signature on it.....he is right in that arena...where the camera used is often (but not always) less important than who is behind it.

Roman

Roman
 
> Posted by Roman Johnston (Roman)
> Put a P&S in larrys hands....and he will make an awesome
> photograph......put a stronger tool like a D2X in his hands.....and
> you wolnt see much diffrence except where the cameras features allow
> more control.....but larrys photography....will still have his
> signature on it.....he is right in that arena...where the camera used
> is often (but not always) less important than who is behind it.

This is true to some extent. I could play a cello concerto on bass clarinet, but would rather not.

The key is matching the instrument to the style of photography. SLRs are great for commercial work, product, hard-news and sports, wildlife, but lousy for sensitive people photography. To the point that when I pick up one of my SLRs, it feels like I am going to "work for the Man" again.

Put a D2X in my hands and most of my photographs in the past few years would not have happened - other than landscape work. A photo essay, such as the biker-bar essay simply could not have been shot with a SLR - it was shot with a Leica. The high-end Coolpix cameras have every bit the adjustability of the Leica coupled to through-the-lens viewing. With the Leica, they share the unagressive image, are discrete and non-intrusive.
http://www.larry-bolch.com/bike-week/

SLRs are big intrusive cameras that draw attention from everyone. Hoist my F3 to my eye and everyone in the room is distracted and spontaneity is gone. They proclaim that photography is about to take place.

This is no problem on a corporate location shoot where if anyone objects to being photographed, they may be fired. It is no problem working with professional models, since they are fueled by the obvious attention. It is no problem in the product studio, since the products could not care less. If well muffled, it is no problem on a wild-life shoot.

People who are not models or actors become uneasy if they are being stared at. Try in a restaurant, office or on public transportation. Watch the victim squirm. It is hard-wired in us – flight-or-fight. Now hoist an SLR with a big lens, and the feeling of being stared at is &lified by an order of magnitude. Shooting chromes for portraits in magazines, I would put the SLR on a tripod and frame the picture. Then I would never again look in the viewfinder for the duration of the shoot, unless the subject moved to another location. While this is fine for CEOs in the executive suite, it just does not work on the street.

When shooting decisive moment stuff where I am now specializing, an SLR is a bloody awful design. For low light, spontaneous shooting, it is like starting 25 paces back in a 100-meter dash. You can finish, but you can never win. It is totally inappropriate for the task.

Speaking of P&S, a couple of decades back I met the president of the Dallas Texas chapter of ASMP wandering around on a Sunday with a totally automatic Nikon around his neck. I raised my eyebrows to see what he would say. Made great sense. He said that like most of us, we haul great loads of gear around every day, and try to please the Man. Photography loses a lot of its fun in the stress and manual labour. He added that the P&S brought back the simple joy that made us go into photography in the first part.

However, the high-end Nikon Coolpix cameras are terrible as P&S cameras. Those who have bought them expecting good P&S performance have been very eloquent in their disappointment in the forums for the most part. I have not yet tried using the CP8400 on the full Auto setting, but did test it on the CP990 and the CP5000. Obviously the guy who did the programming and I did not agree. It gave me a profoundly helpless feeling! Once one accepts that they are fully adjustable cameras in every way, they become magnificent image gathering devices.

The Coolpix cameras also share the benefits of the medium format cameras with between the lens shutters, with flash sync at any speed. Again, in reaction to spending a lifetime hauling strobes, stands and all the crap that goes with them, I work almost exclusively with ambient light now. However, having the high sync speeds has been useful in a few back-lit or very harsh sunlight shots with friends. It was for this feature alone that I bought the Bronica system back in photojournalism days. Many of my other medium format cameras also have between-the-lens shutters.

The compact digital is really a whole new design, however. It really is the first completely new concept in a century since the SLR first came on the scene. It is truly a 21st century design, very much a digital device. It resembles the SLR in through-the-lens viewing, but shows not a symbolic projection on a bit of ground glass, but actually shows the picture as processed. It handles like a rangefinder camera, but does not need one, though Cosina has done one to be marketed by Epson.

I can understand people stuck in the past century having trouble grasping just how advanced the concept is, calling it a point and shoot - which it superficially resembles. It is vastly more. It is the camera I have been seeking since holding the first Leica early in my career and marveling at how incredibly badly designed it was, though the Exacta of that era was even worse. The ergonomics are superb, considering the complexity of the camera.

The big advance is the swing and swivel finder. Like a little view camera with the screen right side up and not reversed. All the infomation I need on a bright little screen. All my settings, a live histogram which is the ultimate Zone System light-meter, a grid that can be toggled on and off. Spot metering and focusing from nine locations. And my face is liberted from having a bloody big contraption jammed in it.

All this adds up to some of the best photography I have done in my lifetime. I can shoot spontaneous portraits with the camera out of the line of sight letting the subject relax, but I can fine tune settings, angle, zoom or whatever without interupting the flow. I grieve that it has come so late in life!

If I got a job offer that I simply could not refuse, and had to use a D2X, yeah, I would. Pay me enough and I will do most anything. While I would prefer a CP8400 and a CP8800 for going back to auto-racing coverage, I would happily do it with a D2X or D2H. I really would not be interested in doing product photography, but if I had to, there would be no problem with a D2X.

So far the D series is a bust for architecture, with the 1.5x cropping factor it turns my 28mm PC-Nikkor shift-lens into a 42mm equivalent. Utterly absurd, since it was never wide enough at 28mm. So long as the DX sensor is standard, there will be a need for at least a 16mm shift-lens. The 28mm PC-Nikkor paid for itself in less than its first day on the job, and left me enough change for a great meal for two with vintage wines.

Were there a good market for epic landscapes prints, a D2X or digital Hasselblad would be OK. With the exception of one image, the desert portfolio could have been easily shot with a SLR, for ex&le. The only advantage I had at the time was the 19mm equivalent lens. The only superwide lens for dSLRs at the time was a very pricey 14mm that gave the equivalent of a 21mm.
http://www.larry-bolch.com/desert2002/

For objective work, the SLR is fine – for subjective work, at least a Leica, but better a Coolpix. For the intimate stuff I am doing now, no SLR even comes close to meeting the requirements. See the first images – mother and child at http://www.larry-bolch.com/ephemeral/

I was using a CP990 with spot metering and exposure, and shot more than two dozen shots over a ten minute ride, using the equivalent of a 24mm lens – yes, I was THAT CLOSE. The camera was in full view for the duration, but it did not intrude and the subjects simply ignored it. With a D2X I would have got the first shot and the mood would have been broken. Several other ex&les on that page and on http://www.larry-bolch.com/sequences.htm

You may notice I have some shots of “birds†in flight just below the mother and kid. Except these birds were high-power rockets. I shot the moment I saw either the first bit of smoke or flame, and generally got a least two shots of each launch. In many cases I got three. These were with the CP5k – not the slug some inexperienced snap-shooters would make it.

I recently posted a selection from the first couple of weeks of use with the new CP8400. Again a number of ex&les where I was able to work extremely close, though this time with the equivalent of an 18mm lens. Some of these could have been shot with the 12->24mm f-4.0 zoom on a D2X, but mine is an f-2.6. No biggie, but nice. Others benefit from the gentleness and unobtrusiveness of the CP8400 and with still others, the camera really did not matter.
http://www.larry-bolch.com/CP8400/

Every camera has its place. I still will continue to carry my WideLuxe 140° panoramic and medium format film cameras where appropriate. No problem exceeding the resolution of a 22MP back with film in a 6x7. No special software needed with the WideLuxe, since the shots are already in panoramic format. Three or four shots need no stitching, but simply layering to make a full 360° panoramic. Far superior to panos shot with any digital camera.

If I had a D2X, it probably would get used now and then. However, for the most part it – and my other SLRs - simply do not match my goals and my vision at the moment. I have rarely used either the Nikon F3 or the Bronica systems in over a decade since I completed a big multi-year catalogue project of fine crafts.

Prior to the acquisition of the CP990 nearly half-a-dozen years back, film was shot mostly in medium format rangefinder cameras. My last magazine assignments were shot with the CP990.

I would not categorically say that I will never use an SLR again, but not for the foreseeable future. I have these few years for myself now, and I want to do the best photography of which I am capable. I simply will not sacrifice the quality of content of my work to use the wrong camera – because it is trendy. or “coolâ€. I will always use the most effective instrument that I can get my hands on. I will not compromise unless I absolutely have to. Trading the CP8400 down to a big and obtrusive SLR, is not a sacrifice I am willing to make. There are not all that many years of shooting left, and I just can not afford to squander them with a camera that will do less than the optimum job.

At this point, there is no camera AT ANY PRICE for which I would trade the grace and fluency of the CP8400 – no matter how advanced, slick or trendy. Content is everything and going to a SLR is giving away the edge that the Coolpix gives one in this specialty of photography.

larry!
http://www.larry-bolch.com/
ICQ 76620504
 
I also practice using the right equipment for the job. For ex&le I use my Contax G2 rangefinder system often for people pictures and when I need to be inconspicous or do other low light intimate photography. I still use my CP 995 and I also get that the swiveling nature of the camera deceives people into thinking that I'm not taking pictures of them, hence getting people with natural expressions (capturing the moment as you put it). I use a Contax 645 for studio portraiture and some landscapes as well. They are all great tools for what they are best at doing and I wouldn't dream of giving them up either, that's why I still own them.

This thread has been thought provoking and maybe we can just agree to disagree on some of the finer points of the usefullness of an SLR, I for one use an SLR about 30% of the time. But even then I can't see myself living without one
happy.gif
And hence my wish for a digital F100
happy.gif


Ciao
 
>I definitely would support that the aperture ring should be there on all >exotic lenses. G lens without ring should be only a price saving >tactics. Not too many Nikon users would confuse with the smallest >aperture on the aperture ring for full program or shutter speed priority - >which is the only logical reason for Nikon to omit the aperture ring. > >I did not trace through all the previous posts but I strongly support the >following. As a Nikon tradition, new Nikon lenses and cameras should be >mostly compatible with the F mount and the accessories should be >interchangeable. It's a camera system that make us stay but not just one >VR lens or one low-price but capable digital body. > >1. ALL expensive glasses should have the aperture ring which can be used >for full manual operation ( no-AF and no-VR is understandable) >2. A minimal exposure meter check should be available (stopdown or >whatever) on all camera models (even Canon can do with Nikkor!) >3. There should be an extension tube from Nikon that can work with both >AF-D and AF-S lenses >4. These should also be teleconverter 1.4x or 2x that can work with both >AF-D and AF-S lenses albeit lower speed >5. Manual AIS lens like 58mm f1.2 Noct or Mirror lens should have a new AF >mount replacement >6. A second series zoom with smaller maximum aperture but with >light-weight and excellent image quality should be provided for those who >want to travel light and does not require that extra stop. >7. An FM3D without display that require small battery or solar energy >(like calculator) for writing into the memory card but otherwise >mechanical is a great idea. >8. Auto-decoupling of the AF mechanism on AF-D lens after the subject is >in focus to allow some of the earlier AF lenses to have half-time (not >full-time) manual adjustment. Or otherwise convert the lenses like >105f2DC and 85f1.4 AF to AFS lens please. >9. Keep the full production line for their top models with the tightest >QC. Don't ever let the F6 that is made in Japan which is absolutely >beautiful to work with the MB40 made in China with different standard. Of >course to be made in China is not a problem, but the different QC standard >can be one. > >Buying Nikkor lenses had not been a straight forward thinking process for >years because either the AF-D lenses are not compatible with their own >teleconverter or some old bodies are not compatible with AFS lenses. Some >body are not compatible with G lenses which have no aperture ring. Do you >feel the same headache? That's also why somebody are still looking for >the 80-200mm f2.8 AFS in second hand market but not buy the new 70-200mm >AFS-VR G lens. Though the 70-200mmf2.8 VR G lens is selling like hot >pan-cake, there are still lot others who would buy this excellent lens if >it had the aperture ring on it. > >If it were not for the full mechanical bodies and some of the lovely lens >that does not exist in other brand, I might have joined the M-brand or the >C-brand already. > >Hope Nikon will be open-minded and listen to not just the pros who only >buy top-model bodies that does not suffer from compatibility problem but >also some of the small potato requests. ;-) > >-Dennis
 
> Hi Dennis,

Thanks for your very comprehensive wish list - and I thought mine was reasonably detailed!

Interesting that there seem to be a significant number who still find an aperture ring more than a useful "accessory". As I mentioned in my first post, I did actually write to Nikon about this, and was told that I was the only one who had expressed an interest in retaining aperture rings. There was an on-line petition to Nikon to return to including aperture rings at the time (to which I also contributed), so I know that there were a number of us around at the time.

One suggestion regarding the introduction of the original "G" type lens was that this series would be a "simpler", less expensive series of "consumer" type lenses. I remember reading some posts suggesting that Nikon had moved in this direction because, in attempting to move "P&S" type photographers to the more lucrative SLR range, there had been problems with exposure when these relatively inexperienced customers forgot to lock the aperture ring. This had apparently resulted in a fair number of perfectly good camera/lens combinations being returned for "repair", because the aperture ring had not been locked, and so program and shutter-priority modes were rendered inactive.

The other suggestion for the removal of aperture rings has been a potential reduction in cost. I have no idea how much an aperture ring adds to the expense of a lens, but now that all lenses, including those of many thousands of pounds/dollars, are having their aperture rings removed, it really begs the question whether this so-called cost reduction actually saves much for Nikon. In terms of rendering their legacy models (including their newly released FM3A) unusable with any of the now decidedly "professional" G-type lenses, this decision seems highly questionable.

This factor, along with those relating more to the camera body themselves (such as power source, etc.) seem to indicate a definite shift towards breaking with the past. I simply do not see that the so-called "advantages" are worth the break in the fine tradition of backwards-compatibility. Nikon have proved deaf to my enquiries, and for a company that in the past prided themselves with their inclusion of legacy systems (F-mount prime amongst them), this seems a strange direction to take. As Jorgen mentioned in one of his first replies, Nikon are now competing with large electronics corporations for survival, and I would have thought this very unique position would be something to prize and develop, rather than abandon. After all, you can't simply copy and mass produce a legacy.

This "FM3D" sounds very intriguing! After Nikon's "surprises" with the introduction of the FM3A (when all said the FM2N was just fine) and the F6 (when many said the F5 or F100 were good enough), it is tempting to think that such a model might be possible. However, the change in philosophy towards breaking the ties with the past (eg, G lenses, proprietary lithium-ion power, etc.) suggests this will be an interesting, but no more, suggestion. No current DX lenses could ever be used on such a camera body, appealing though the concept may be to many of us.

Here's to small potatoes!

Regards,

Ian
 
Hi Ian and others, I have been following a few Pentax threads on photo.net and dpreview. Penta x have launched a number of primes (the "Limited" series) the last couple of years with aperture rings. At the same time, they have discontinued all their 50mm lenses and a few other useful primes and launched a lot of zooms instead, all of them for APS size sensors only. They seem to be giving up film completely.

In an interview with one of their directors, translated from Japanese on th e dpreview forum, the guy stated that the massive sales of prime lenses to dSLR customers had taken them by surprise.

This is an interesting statement, and if that opinion is common within the industry, it shows how much the circus is now run by marketing departments assisted by electronics engineers. The opinion seems to be that, since the quality of high ISO improves, we should be happy with slow zooms, keeping u s at status quo so to say, at least with regards to available light photography.

So instead of gaining possibilities with the new technology, we get the choice of slow zooms for a reasonable price, or the expensive, large and heavy 2.8 zooms. And with the most common crop factor for dSLRs, there are very few fast wide angle zooms available.

I keep getting the feeling that the fast digital development has taken the photo business by surprise. At the same time, they see that they will die fast (which some are doing right now) if they don't participate in the race .

The problem is they don't seem to know where they are going, and while SLRs very much followed a single standard for 50 years, both with regards to fil m size and lenses, each of the remaining (5?) suppliers are now trying out their own theories. Who pays? We do.

I don't really fear that a dSLR bought today will be obsolete in a few years, not with regards to picture quality. But with at least 5 different sensor sizes out there, somebody will probably give up their standard, and if my supplier is the one who has to change, guess what will happen with support for my camera.

So while an SLR could be bought for anything between $200 and 3,000 and be expected to last for 10-30 years, the prices now are 3-5 times as high and we have no idea how long they are going to last. What we do know, is that except for Nikon, hardly any dSLR has been on the market for more than 2 years.

On that background, a little hesitation from Nikon's side is maybe not so bad after all. The technology is far from mature, the market likewise. Even if the Canon approach with new models all the time (4 new dSLRs only the last year) is a commercial success now, the question if they are able, or willing, to support all the different models and technologies in 5 or 10 years.

So if I have to wait another year for an FM3d or a digital F100, I can stil l use the cameras that have served me well for so far, and there are lots of Coolpix and Powershots and other very good digicams around that can make th e wait rather entertaining. I will prefer a product that will not result in the "oh that model.... yes, I remember we had parts for it 5 years ago" kin d of comment when I bring it in for service in 6 years.

I just saw a Japanese tourist here with an (ugly) *ist Ds and pancake lens a few days ago btw. It was small enough for the (big) pocket of his raincoat, has the same sensor as the D70 and uses 4 AA cells. Nikon! Can you hear me? The other guys have made your camera already! Come on!

Jorgen
 
Back
Top